Ironically, in giving this speech, Lindell was doing just that shooting the wounded. Sometimes people get the idea that everybody needs some church-recognized ministry. At this point it seems to me that this would be the last thing that MD needed if he wants to get himself turned around. In his introductory remarks, he spoke of Marks kindness, humility. Its so weird and twisted, but people eat it up. I would hope we should higher standards than that. He screamed and swore. If I were Satan I would give the Wormwood who came up with that system a big raise (or give away their books so theyd get a fat royalty check ; ). Stephens, in my opinion, has gone to great lengths to keep his position on the ordinance incomprehensible. If there are reports of a scandal or problems at a church, they are true. thats the same conclusion i came to, i think the Lord is showing us, for ourselves and others that we do need to look at fruit. Im all for forgiveness but this complete whitewash of history when someone offers up an opportunistic Im sorry is not something I see in day to day life. There is no uncertainty in that. First, he begins by praying that he wants to make this time just about God and His people; yet he appears to take the stories of Stephen and Paul and apply them to his own circumstance at least that's how it sounded to me. You said again twice. i tweeted: I think MD needs a season in the wilderness to really think things out. A friend of the family stated the same. Reveal the conspiracy please. I present to you James River church in Springfield Missouri this past weekend. it is heartbreaking to have to help them get through the transfer of custody until the one can get through a treatment and be able to be around the child again. http://www.smh.com.au/national/hillsong-conference-shows-interview-with-controversial-us-pastor-mark-driscoll-20150630-gi1y6d.html, As a follow-up (Sydney Morning Herald 1 July 2015), Hillsong conference shows interview with controversial US Pastor, Mark Driscoll. :o) I would view it like this: If there are reports of a scandal or problems at a church, they are worth investigating with openess and transparancy. I just think that there is not much reason to listen to just his side of the story and think that is all there may be to it. I hope you dont write off church altogether. . I also dont think he should work or earn profit in any manner making money off Jesus (such as selling Christian books, pod casts, site subscriptions, accepting speaking fees to appear at churches, etc). Guess well see. I want to know what is so bad about the church and why people dislike it. there is a scripture somewhere that says i wont speak against Gods annointed, which was david re saul i believe, and people have used this (or churches have used this to keep people quiet) as a reason to never say anything about church abuse. I believe these churches are using Driscoll as fallen pastor insurance. All allegation deserve to be investigated with openess and transparancy. The issue, however, is character, evidenced by a pattern of behavior reported with regard to bullying behavior, narcissitic traits, etc. They are used to being believed no matter what they say. And we in the real world of Jobs & Lives have to deal with the resulting Speshul Little Snowflakes. Lindell reused the Robert Morris line of chiding his congregation to stop shooting the wounded. http://www.standfirminfaith.com/?/sf/page/31866. Are we really talking about clerical influence/position/authority and money? Anyone who invites Driscoll without knowing his background also displays no judgement. 17 They say still unto them that despise me, The LORD hath said, Ye shall have peace; and they say unto every one that walketh after the imagination of his own heart, No evil shall come upon you. Six months for Driscoll does not represent later in life, give him another ten or twenty years. The question is not, Can he be forgiven? but rather Should he be trusted in a position of power over peoples lives? I would guess that many of the people who have been directly harmed by him have forgiven him. Has he asked them to forgive him? You might be onto something there Sopy. He is not going to go run to a car dealership the minute he gets out of jail. These churches are both responsible for vetting their speakers, and they utterly failed on this one. We hunkered down and prepared ourselves for the impact of Mark Driscolls threat. This has nothing to do with the recent downfall of Mark and demise of Mars Hill. Don't you know that the way he behaved and treated people is no big deal? GW is also currently preaching John Hagees End Times Armageddon sermons to pump up the numbers, claiming the Rapture WILL take place prior to 12-31-18, in order to scare folks into those spontaneous tubs. But we don't know yet for sure. Having a large following for a while, being insulated from most of reality, produces this result. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. And I saw it. It could be that they are as ignorant as I once was, but it makes me distrust their judgment and discernment and dislike them all the same. Im not kidding. (WARNING: Includes graphic language), American news sources didn't waste much time alerting their readers of this development. They stirred up the people now the mob is forming. They noted that since the pandemic began, they have taken very stringent precautions at each service, including: take temperatures at the door, fog-sanitize their auditorium, sanitize the childrens areas and common areas multiple times daily and provide masks to everyone who attends. After witnessing Philips miracles, he tried to buy the power with his money. Thanks for sharing your answer Lydia. Whats worse, total lack of good character. Hmmm, trust the Spirit, and let them be killed like Ananias and Sapphira? He screamed and swore. Is this similar to Radical Chic? Just some thoughts to consider. A group of followers dealing directly with each other and not with an institution sounds appealing. Plus I put up some Mozart for you guys. @ Lydia: (This was all before the sex sermons and book.) Church Discipline I arrived a little late here, and this has likely already been mentioned (I havent read all comments). Above all he had that coveted edginess he wore age and occupation inappropriate t shirts and chunky jewelry on the pulpit. I hope more will speak up in the future. Actually, I think the timing was just for that reason. years ago when non denoms were pentecostal and full gospelit seemed they were trying to get back to the Jesus of the bible, the Living Jesus. Oops, last comment of mine was supposed to link to this comment. And Lindell knows none of that is because of him. CAn you see him in some sort of corporate environment working for a woman? Finding out who and what Robert Morris really is inherently taints many others on the religious and political right, thereby making me question all my prior values and decisions. Maybe Driscoll feels a notch above Paul since hes not called for any ones death? Ive recently read Wayne Jacobsen Finding Church, Frank Viola Finding Organic Church, Terry Stanley The way Church Was Meant To Be and found what they think the church should be an interesting concept but so far Im not convinced. He had simply accepted the rumors. IMO they are not qualified to interpret the Bible. it sounds like you have a story of sorts. So I can see why some churches would want him on board. Driscoll, IMHO, is completely unsuited for any position of authority. This weekend GW is also doing Steven Furtick spontaneous baptism which are executed to the letter like Elevation. I mean this only works in some venues. http://mercysurvivors.com/2014/03/06/mercy-ministries-peru-309k-and-no-cherry/#more-1348. I am still finding it hard to believe that Mr. Houston doesnt have access to Google, or some other search engine, in Australia. . But forgiveness doesnt mean he should ever be in the same position in a church again. Eye Hath Not Seen, Nor Ear Heard What He hath prepared for those who love Him?. luke was paul's dr and paul was luke's pastor. Far as I can tell Driscoll is arrogant, a lover of money, unholy, not above reproach, etc. No one except lemmings following blindly to where the MoG leads believes them when they say that they only learned about certain facts recently. your comments are great. We would be interested in any thoughts you may have regarding Mark Driscoll's message. i have been ousted from 6 churches already and at first i took it as me being in error and not able to understand the bible or what the Lord had called me to be like but now i am able to see that i can trust the still small voice inside and the Holy Spirit to give me understanding of the scriptures without having to run it by a pastor somewhere. Every week seems to get more strange and more openly cult like. They sing and wave their arms and hug and praise other givers. I have heard Driscoll in person.. was paul asking for forgiveness? Im sure someone wittier than I can do something with his Training ourselves to sense right from wrong. appeciate your posts and the others on this blog, i remember that, thanks Van, for the reminder. They worked hard to get where they are and make the assocations that would help them. I have read both accounts that Che was short for Chancho and also a play on his habitually calling everyone che which is slang for pal/friend etc. This is off topic but your question has been the basis of discussion with many associates for the last 6 months, many recently leaving an authoritarian church. Is that leader with a criminal record hitting on your young teen? He later boasts that he did not immediately go get instruction from the apostles in Jerusalem, but he does not say exactly why. Applying this mode to spiritual abuse has gotten me thinking..and I wonder if in the future Mark will only hang around people/churches that are willing to stay on this Drama Triangle. I wish just one person would have spoken up sooner. Connection ends, shunning begins and the cycle begins all over again with the next batch of newbies. He lives in the Show Me State, so go ahead and show me. An online petition calling for Mr Driscoll to be removed from Hillsong's conferences had attracted more than 3000 signatures prior toMr Houston's statement. Good luck to you Sam. *carefully targeting pastors who want to build an empire of their own with an easy publicity stunt (although described Christian-like so it actually sounds noble, in both marketing and in the buying pastors self-talk), @ LT: Saul did get out of Dodge for some years. He should not be making a buck off Jesus in any way, shape, or form, IMO. (Those wounded by MD) must forgive even if (MD) never admits wrong. Sincerely want to know what the alternative is. I am not surprised he is mobilizing his church, which packs a powerful political punch through the sheer number of members and, I believe, their commitment to vote. Having heard MDs messages for several years now, I believe he is trying to lead people into thinking its about him. Forgiveness does not address that issue at all. Yes, well, my sense of humor doesnt always translate well in the blogosphere . "He saw it for what it was. "Addressing this topic or the subject of the upcoming vote from the pulpit is not against the law in this country, although it may be in the future," Lindell said in the sermon. No special event meet and greet for high dollar donors. It refers to protecting the King of Israel from physical harm, not preventing people from telling the truth. standing. I asked people who were about as famous (if that is what you call it) as him what they thought. I was shocked and deeply saddened to see photos from the James River event over the weekend. The worst of all the bad these churches can do (apart from sexual assaults) is brainwashing the kids into their cult beliefs so that they will not accept the true Word of God at a later date. Dont forget his church plant was asked to leave my kids school at the time. he (stephen) probably had a ministry, forgiving means you transfer judgment to Jesus, thats what he does, (stephen transfers it to jesus to judge paul), words fail me, but a wrote a bunch which should be up soon lol, i tweeted: Sincerely want to know what the alternative is. Title He essentially called the Driscoll victims liars and persecutors. The introduction sounded like it was coming from a caretaker role. FTR Hillsong is also Assemblies of God. I wonder how much of this concern over gay rights is to deflect people from considering their own deficiencies. Otherwise, its authentic shunning for you. Yes, thanks for this. Are they involved in a joint venture? "It is possible for someone who has been a life-long alcoholic to stop. James River Church is one of the largest Assemblies of God churches in the United States. Some scholars put his time in Tarsus as much as 7 years and might be when he took up tentmaking since he was cut off from the rabbincial living. But the Pipers, Mohlers, Akins and others saw him as someone really catching the attention of the young guystheir followers. I never thought of that but that certainly might be the case. its a little hard to swallow that he knew nothing about Driscolls behaviour. If you become used to a certain standard of living, that does not mean you are entitled to that standard of living. I completely understand why you are so skeptical. It is anguish because i love them, and see the pain of all three of them. Its just that it isnt what a NT pastor of a group of Christians should be doing. I still dont think he understands the harms he has done. Its what he does. Galatians 5:22-23. It seems foolish from a marketing and business view to alienate over half your customers.. COuld someone explain how its supposed to work without a leader . So we were allowed to leave in good standing. In other words, his behavior did change. I find it hard to believe he truly didnt know anything before last weekend! "Eastview Christian Church pastor, Mike Baker, resigns after son, Caleb Baker, is fired from Central Christian Church for adultery" Why? pic.twitter.com/FwaVnYEZIi. Mark' Driscoll's message has been uploaded on the church website, and we have included it here should you choose to watch it. What am I saying? mark is finally preaching more accurately who Jesus is and the fact that salvation is found in Jesus but then he goes off into marks interpretation of the bible as usual. Obviously, I disagree with Lindell on the upcoming vote. Che Guevera was a die hard Communist who actively conspired with the Soviet Union to turn America into a long nuclear winter landscape that would put Winterfell to shame. . As a result, the IRS has guidelines on their political activity. . He made a lucrative living and lived what I would call a lavish lifestyle (higher standard of living than every single person in my church, for example), and he did it all with Jesus. I take it to mean: Don't feel so bad, there are whole lot of other people hell-bound, too. This guy had his audience eating out of the palms of his hands. Kids will experience life-giving messages and TONS of fun as they watch content created just for them. Question: @netgrace was involved with Vineyard Duluth and did a great job. I think it underestimates those believers in the pews who are, themselves, filled with the Spirit and do exhibit the fruit of Galations 5. your post, and this one i read on facebook yesterday: I then stood up and pointed out that 30 lines below the famous quote All men are created equal the Declaration of Independence refers to Natives as merciless Indian savages. http://nativenewsonline.net/currents/the-dilemma-of-the-fourth-of-july/. I will post about this. I dont think people that have fallen for false teachers are stupid, i think instead it reflects the degree of deceit in the false teachers and the seriousnes of the manipulations being used. The problem is that the average pew-sitter has no idea what things a leader should be judged by. ++++++++++++++++. The church, according to the web site, was founded by three individuals, Mark Driscoll, Leif Moi and Mike Gunn. kinda like a person who has been abused i think, they sometimes have to get past that people may judge them for being stupid for falling for it, or they have to reconcile with the results of them speaking out, shunning, slander ie: the church calls them heretics because they dont attend anymore. I didnt feel pressured. Do you know his history and what he represents? And shame on these preachers at these churches giving MD a platform to relaunch his church-related career. But we dont know yet for sure. How about the demon trials? My point with Che is to draw a parallel. Blech!! now i am going to see if i can stand to listen to the whole mark speaks video. Whenever I hear Mark Driscolls name, a passage keeps popping in my mind Beware of Alexander the coppersmith he has done us much harm. Driscoll and his potty-mouth preaching made an everlasting mark on 21st century church in America. For those who follow celebrities, I dont, this is the church that made it into the news last year. Penalty Flag? They sing and wave their arms and hug and praise other givers. vengance is where you make someone pay. There has not been a frank identification of the flaw in the system that produced the horrific results. the money that was supposed to be going to missionaries in another country had been intertwined with the general fund. What I dont get is that those pastors dont care if they look completely dishonest in their statements. And did he threaten to punch Pastor Lindell in the nose and throw him under the bus if he wasnt given the gig? In October, he resigned as head pastor from Mars Hill, a Seattle megachurch with a Sunday attendance of 13,000. He cannot or will not go back to school to become a plumber or a dentist or what ever, so he has to figure out how to get back into the Christian preaching / book writing / convention circuit. Christian institutions are trying to express an organic Jesus in non-organic structures. arrogant, a lover of money, LT wrote: When that donor eventually supported our decision to leave peaceably, Jamie Munson was in a pickle. ++++++++++++++++++. if your a sports fan theres a point of where something amazing is about to happenfootball baseball in the middle of a game changing moment they jump out of their seat. News flash: Jesus is the hero of scripture. @Albuquerque Blue There is a distinct period of time that must pass before you can really objectively address the damage that that place does. (remembering marks sermon about mark being king) jesus is seated and he stands up for stephen. http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1989926/posts hmmm Pastors who give Mark Driscoll a platform are adding to the abuse of those of us who were abusively treated by Mars Hill Church. Its a professional, corporate institutional model based on an unbiblical clergy/ laity distinction. where is Mark Driscolls apology to over a thousand children in two orphanages? Gateway is so deceptive in all their practices. 4 Ways of Discerning If You Have Left Jesus Behind. Weve got enough local crazy around here, we dont need Mark Driscoll and his He-Man Woman-Hating Circus. This is what the giving unit is looking for, not God. Not that I think he failed to tell the truth. It's because Caleb was allegedly involved in multiple sexual relationships while on staff at daddy's church and he was, The Gospel Coalition now says not everyone can be a missionary. What is the biblical prescription for sinning Elders? some things i noticed are in (parenthesis) Consider how he attained it fleecing the flock. The bathrooms were tiny and not particularly nice. i was looking for my link to Rob Smiths orphanage and found that he has recently posted a great response to those propping up Mark Driscoll. Even if Houston hadnt properly researched before the demise of MH, surely he must have learned something to have made the decision to downgrade MD from speaker to interviewee. Your mistake is in assuming that Driscoll was there to deliver a sermon. How can they do that? Seriously? Based on my experience, this public story should be seen as somewhat inevitable in how they operate. I know people are tired of hearing these messages and having to be acting upon them, but the virus does not care that we are tired. Youre not trying hard enough! One co worker attends and stated that they requested to see W2s and that he tithe accordingly when he was inquiring to become a member. I knew I was being set up when I watched MDs embedded church video posted here at TWW. Driscoll has been more than a jerk, he has shown the inability to hold power without abusing it. I think older people ignored the bad boy Driscoll because he seemed to be reaching the young people. Thanks for your comments. actually getting behind the wheel of a car again will probably be the hardest thing he does, if he ever even wants to drive again. sam wrote: Ches rise and fall occurred before I was born so Id sincerely appreciate any insight and correction. If you take his quotes about his economic policies in Cuba and substitute covenant or biblical Gospel he sounds about the same as the pastors we are discussing. That is largely what TWW does, ISTM. Its all good until (insert question or issue). Are you not voting? Most of all we want people to know that God loves and cares for them, the church said. Im guessing Driscolls trying to resurrect his career by going into Charismatic type denominations or churches. Oh no. Let's see. That idea was right before the idea that they were always having to give a lot of money to the church while we have voluntary giving. Certainly, or we are no better than he is. elisabeth seton wrote: There are some Calvinists who go in the opposite direction and are very humbled by their monergistic view of salvation. That does not even mention the eradication of those who did not agree and his cognitive dissonance concerning Hiroshima and working to bring USSR Nuclear missles in Cuba claiming it would be good to use them on Imperialist American. "And how many knownot everything you read on the internet is true". since we are all clergy??? I believe these churches are using Driscoll as fallen pastor insurance. Totally. Totally. Lindell hit two main points: the Bible is clear in its condemnation of homosexuality as sin and the ordinance is an infringement on the religious rights of Christians who believe so. The resistance is to Jesus. And Shifting the Blame. ( As with the dituation with John Mark mentioned in Acts, and the conflict with Peter mentioned in Galatians. Before people know it, feeling loved and valued (and not realizing it was due to preplanned manipulation) they are plugged in several days a week, basically dropping out of their non-church activities. His appeal, then and now, has much to do with his looks plus a perception of him being anti-establishment, which he was. . stephen the shepherd is dying. If any blogger made such a vague blanket statement as this theyd be called out immediately. Youd think theyd feel a sense of civic duty there. They dont (want to) get it. Judging a pastors or missionaries repentance is not being critical of pastors, its saying, this is a position that has really high moral qualifications and if you dont have them, get out of the pulpit. @ Lydia: where is God in all this? Mark Driscoll was totally missing those things. their ministry grew and even people that werent christians were thankful for them. I saw many warnings but there seemed to be some explanation for most of it. If so associating with Driscoll they can get the thug part down. 15 Therefore thus saith the LORD of hosts concerning the prophets; Behold, I will feed them with wormwood, and make them drink the water of gall: for from the prophets of Jerusalem is profaneness gone forth into all the land. Location. They didnt fail. Che is somewhat of a romantic figure for a lot of people which is why bringing him up can be uncomfortable. I agree more with you than I would like to. It is deceiving men so they will be more inclined to pay those 500+ employees their hundred thousand dollar pay packages. So I can see why some churches would want him on board. He is a draw. How can a reasonable person look past that? @ Nancy: (he is still famous and worthy of famous people helping him) things you have heard about mark are not even close to true, what you read on the internet isn't true. He genuinely seemed to care. No I wouldnt allow someone who was an embezzler or criminal back in charge, of course not. I want to have the heart for the women in the future who will allow me to be their pastor that I have for my daughters, he said, and that is if they have spiritual gifts, and are called by God, and are godly, I want to help them achieve that intentionally and encourage that and be a support for that.. It was titled "A Biblical Look at Human Sexuality." I started to ask myself, If Christ is present in someones life, and therefore the Spirit, will not God, in his infinite power, begin to produce those things in that person? And I began to wonder if Mark Driscoll even possessed the Spirit of God. It probably did. Nancy How can they do that? There was no light show. What is tragic is that these events will lead everyone who has two braincells to rub together to come to the following default conclusions: If there are reports of a scandal or problems at a church, they are true. Association of Related Churches Mark Driscoll, thepreacher who stepped down from his Seattle megachurch in October 2014after being accusedof plagiarism, bullying and an unhealthy ego has beentrying to returnto some kind of speaking tourat Christian conferences. I see him as a conference speaker on a different circuit. I can forgive someone even without an apology. I would lay 50 to 1 odds that a change in MD will be announced and proved to be a change in words not a change in behavior! As I was getting ready for church last Sunday morning, I quickly checked my Facebook feed for any news and saw the this headline (see screen shot below): I 'shared' the article from an Australian news source, along with a comment: "Mark Driscoll needs to step away from the microphone for a long season of contemplation.". that is not walking in love that is running a business, and i am not a judge. Bummer. See here: As you all know, my family and I have been facing difficult trials and persecution. One of six. I wouldnt want to walk in his shoes and succumb to the large amount of pride he exhibits, what an empty way to live. The question may even be wrong, maybe it isnt what is the church but who is. Really? In 1969, he was transferred to a church in Fairmont, W.Va. I want to know how I was deceived. this discussion you make today determines your destiny, God wants you to forgive. Lindell reused the Robert Morris line of chiding his congregation to stop shooting the wounded. in the first years of the organinazation they didnt do anything without consensus because they believed that if they were a group of believers the Lord would make them of the same agreement on specific issues and if they didnt reach agreement there was a reason that needed to be looked at. The term was invented by Tom Wolfe back in the 70s to describe the superficial gliteratti associating with revolutionary thugs as a way to prove their bonafides. Considering the level of corruption I impute to mixing with Driscoll, Im not wondering much. Some of it probably is. Are you not voting? My old church Gateway has atmosphere teams in services to emotionally manipulate members and visitors. Posted by NancyAlcorn at 1:06 PM 2 comments. How can a reasonable person look past that? actually Jesus spoke to people He had healed early in His ministry and told them not to tell everyone, they did anyway and He spent the rest of His ministry having crowds pressing against Him and having to go hide sometimes. believe these churches are using Driscoll as fallen pastor insurance. People think that Christians want filled pews and big churches, most do, i strongly disagree with that. His statement is factually incorrect. Likewise, in house churches sin happens because people will be people. So why would they view power and authority as central to the Gospel? But the dishonest churches can be relied upon to cry persecution. Most people have more sunk into that cult than they do their homes. At some point, with enough outcry and rage from outside, they may hopefully see it as you did looking up at that 3 x 5 card on your bulletin. However, you are on to something with the radical chic concept. Pastor John Lindell mentioned that Mark and Grace founded Mars Hill Church eighteen years ago. instead i find now that the Lord uses other christians to confirm things He has shown me, instead of the Lord teaching me things that others say i should believe and me just accepting them as the word of God because the guy has a position or written a book or is promoted by other pastors. All the celebrity has to do is play the victim/repented card. Albuquerque Blue reminded me of something about mark driscoll during the fall. or barred from the league for having too many technichal fouls for unsportsmanlike conduct and yelling at the referees for too many seasons. We would love for you to join us for a service. Until that flaw is named and claimed, it is reasonable to expect this kind of thing to happen again. He set himself up as King of Acts 29 and operated with no accountability at Mars Hill. I think people on all sides of these conflicts did some pretty horrendous things, as well as some decent things.
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